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This is exciting, it’s only the third time it’s happened, but anytime a Lifesigns album comes out, you can just sense the anticipation. A lot of that build up is because these last two times you’ve been crowdfunding the albums, which seems to really get people on your side even before the album is finished and released.
Yeah, very much so. Initially with the first album, we did go down the record company route, but we decided fairly early on that from there on in we were going to be independent. We’d spoken to several record companies. We talked to people in power and we’d realized that we’d rather really be left to our own devices. [laughs]Because we thought with that, then it would be down to our quality control and nobody else’s. And I think that has served us well. Then we kind of put out to the people who supported us from the first album: Would they continue to do that with both the second album, the DVD, and also now this third album. But unfortunately the funding platform that we used, Pledge Music, went horribly wrong. So we just decided to do it ourselves this time and it’s all gone very nicely thus far.
So did the fact that you didn’t have a record label – you had one behind the debut album but not the next two – did that have something to do with a shift in the music? For example, I would say “Altitude” has a little more in common with “Cardington” sonically than the debut album, which seemed a little more full-on prog. So was that somehow influenced by the lack of a record company?
No, to be honest with the first record and the record company, we just made the record and gave it to a record company. So we’ve always been in charge of our own destiny, so to speak, but with the first album that really all came from a bet very early on where I said, I felt that there could be better, newer prog. It was kind of treading water a bit and we felt it could move forwards and we felt there were still places to go sonically that hadn’t been reached yet. And we were very lucky. The band kind of morphs from year to year, so everybody that’s been involved in it has got day jobs working for, shall we say, slightly more famous artists than ourselves. So it was always a labor of love. So to an extent, we managed to make the first album quite proggy, we thought that was the way to go. And then we wanted to build something else in from there. And I think with “Cardington“, it was a lovely mix. I always felt that that was a nice mix of big tunes and also some proper songs. And to an extent, this has now probably moved on from there a little and there’s an element of lots of different things, there’s even jazz fusion in there. A couple of people I’ve seen in reviews have compared us to UK, which I was very pleased with. Jon, our bass player, he has on his bass guitar “Destroy All Genres” so he’s quite happy to be in any genre you want. I think that’s a good thing.
How does playing with a new drummer this time – and previously different guitarists and even bassist – how do those changes impact the recording for you?
As I say, it’s been very fluid. When we did the first album, Nick Beggs was playing bass and from there Nick couldn’t do it live because of his commitments with Steve Hackett and Steve Wilson. So Jon Poole came in and has been with us ever since and is truly wonderful. We’ve been very lucky because everybody that we’ve ever approached has always said, Yes! So even the guests, Steve Hackett, Thijs Van Leer, people like that…nobody ever said no. We even had some very special guests that didn’t appear on the records because it didn’t work. I’m not going to go into who they were, but it’s always been about the quality, it’s always been about making sure it fitted the way that we worked. And I think that has probably stood us in good stead.
Does it impact the way that you write or arrange the music depending on who you are working with, especially with Dave now as the guitarist?
Oh, Dave‘s glorious. [laughs]I mean, when we were doing these last shows, it was quite funny because I said I’m probably about the third best keyboard player in the band. There’s Dave, and Jon‘s brilliant, and it’s a joy, it’s a joy to work with such talent. Well, you know, Scott, you work all your life to work with the people who are the best. And I can only say that with these three albums – and obviously Steve Rispin is very much part of that – we’ve been very fortunate to work with the best all the way through, and it’s been such a joy. It’s very difficult because there isn’t…it’s something we’ve been discussing on sort of prog areas in the UK and Prog Magazine readers and stuff…there isn’t really an outlet these days for this music. It’s not like it was in the seventies. Robert Fripp once said to me, John, you know, your only problem was you were born five years too late. Well, that applies to a lot of people. And it doesn’t mean that the music necessarily got any worse after that period of time, there was just no funding. So I think in a way, the way that I see it, is that the people who work hard to make great records these days – and there are many – deserve far greater accolades than the people from the seventies, because they never had fast paychecks and swimming pools and big cars. They just had to get on with it while they worked in other day jobs and generally really strived hard to make beautiful music. In the old days, we used to have things like the Old Gray Whistle Test and stuff like that, which used to sort of showcase some of the great talent that was around at the time. And I do feel that if that was possible now on either side of the Atlantic – I mean Casey Casem and all that kind of stuff back in the day in the States – then there would be a chance that the music would become far more accessible.
You mentioned being the third best keyboardist in the band [both laughing]and I noticed in the liner notes that both Dave and Steve are credited with some keyboards. But considering that keys are mainly your role, how do you decide when someone else will play keys on the album, or what moves you to say, Hey Dave, why don’t you give a go on this?
It’s generally down to the guys involved. If somebody is listening to the track and goes, You know what? I think I can put something in there. Then it can come from anybody. I mean, pretty much all our guys can play keyboards, so anyone can put, you know, a bass pedal part here or whatever. It doesn’t mean it gets on the album. Obviously then it all goes to committee and we are pernickety to the last. I mean, we really fight tooth and nail to make sure it’s exactly how we want it to be. So a lot of stuff gets thrown out, and a lot of brilliant stuff gets thrown out. But if it doesn’t fit the song then it doesn’t get on. So The Song is King all the way. It’s not about how brilliantly you play, how fast you can play, what you can do, how much you can show off. It’s about the song and if it fits in the song then that’s when it works for us.
Well, let’s look at some of the specific songs on here. A song like “Ivory Tower”, is that written about a specific person from your life or someone that you knew?
Ha, I won’t go into specifics on that one but yeah, it was from a moment of my life that wasn’t particularly pleasant in terms of a relationship. The whole story took place in an Indian restaurant. And it was just about being told something beautifully that was a complete fabrication. The song came from that. I felt it was quite evocative the way that it worked. It was on my first album “Life Underground“, so it’s been around for a while. We did it with The John Young band as well. It was really Steve that said, You know what? This song is great. Can we put it in the set? So we put it in the set on the last gigs before lockdown happened and it went down really well. As did “Last One Home“. What we’ve tried to do over time – and this included the DVD – is as we move forwards, obviously there’s a lot of new stuff, but there’s also one or two epics from the past that have crept into the albums. I think that will continue to be the case, with a bit of luck.
I’ve always thought it was dangerous to be in a relationship with a songwriter, as you’re bound to make the headlines sooner or later for better or for worse.[laughing]But also the song is a thing of beauty. So you have to be thankful from that point of view as to having created something that was that beautiful. You asked earlier about writing, and “Ivory Tower” was the first time I’d written a song in the way that I write now. So up until then, I’d been writing in a kind of more established way. And then “Ivory Tower” was the first time that I wrote in a new way, shall we say
It’s an interesting juxtaposition because the song has such a beautiful, almost romantic cadence to it. One would think that it’s a love song.
Well, in a way it is. it’s about a lost-love song. So it’s about what might’ve been rather. I think songwriters have always tended to go for that, in some ways the pathos of it is probably more interesting than what is. So, um, I think unrequited love is something that becomes quite tragic in a way, but beautiful at the same time.
Give us some background of titling the short instrumental piece “Arkhangelsk”, and its relation to John Wetton.
Yeah. Well this goes back, obviously. I worked with John for 15 to 20 years, something along those lines. I remember when I was touring with Asia, John said to me one evening while we were rehearsing down at Barry Barlow’s place on the Thames. And John said to me, You know, we need some more tunes [laughs]. I said, Fair enough. He said, Can you come up with anything? So I said, I’ll give it a go. So, that night I came up with three tunes that kind of work together, of which one was “Arkangel” and one was “Last One Home“, strangely. John really liked them. I can’t remember what we used at that particular time, but we later played “Last One Home” as well with Quango when we did that. That was the beginning of our writing together. Shortly after that, when John did his “Battlelines” album, I worked with them on that. But on “Arkangel” I co-wrote half of the album. John‘s an absolutely brilliant songwriter, amazing musician. And so I felt it was nice to sort of just give a nod back to those times and say, thank you.
Can you tell us a little more about the different incarnations of “Last One Home” over the past decade?
I used to go and play “Last One Home” on my own when the first album came out. And I could quite easily go into a room where no one would clap, no one would be the slightest bit interested because you weren’t playing anything they knew. And this has become a more common occurrence. So then when we did it with JYB and we’d outnumber the audience! And this kind of thing. So it’s certainly done the rounds to get to where it is. And then when Quango did it, it went down really well. I think people have always enjoyed the song. And then we brought it back into its current incarnation. I mean, Dave Bainbridge’s solo is outrageously good. And I did wonder how long it would be before his name and another Dave from another band would get compared [laughs], So, which one’s better? I think it’s well-deserved, David’s an incredible guitarist. And before that, obviously with Quango, we had Dave Kilminster on it, who does work with the Pink Floyd stuff. So, I think you have to be called Dave to play the solo!
You got three Dave’s right there. You know, I kind of chuckled when I heard the song and heard Dave solo over it, I was just wondering, Was Dave just really excited when you presented him with this lengthy section for him to solo over? I kind of think of it as like when Steven Wilson gave “Drive Home” to Guthrie Govan and said, All right, I’m just setting you up here, man, go be a star!
Yeah, there is an element of fill your boots with it, that’s for sure. The thing was that when we first did the song, the solo section was half the length. [laughing]So, you can imagine who suggested it should be twice as long! And he was absolutely right. I mean, the build is beautiful. And I have to say that, as a band, it works really well. One of the things I’ve really loved about Zoltan‘s playing is that he plays within the song and he can adapt to anything. You know our song “N” from “Cardington?” Well, when we changed drummers, I gave that song to a number of drummers and they said, Well, give us a couple of weeks and we’ll get back to you. [laughs]Zoltan got back three hours later. And it was amazing! And I just thought, Well, that’s incredible. But the thing is, he’ll hold it back when he needs to. And so I think that’s always been a requirement with everybody within the band and Jon Poole as well. You know, I mean, Jon can play Chris Squire-reborn in areas and plays incredible bass guitar. But they will hold back when it’s necessary. So we all hold back underneath Dave’s solo in “Last One Home” to just let him rip. And boy does he rip!
Well, I went back to the, to the Quango live album and it was interesting hearing John Wetton sing it and then Dave Kilminster’s approach to that guitar solo with that very clean sound and feeling as it starts…it’s just great to hear the dynamics and differences that guitarists will choose to approach it with.
Well, yeah. How spoilt am I? You know, I get to listen to all these wonderful people being on my tune. I remember there was one night on the Quango tour, that John couldn’t sing it, so I sang it and there was a definite interchangeability there. I really enjoyed doing that with Quango. To be honest, going back to that band, I wasn’t really a massive ELP fan or anything like that. And it was quite a tricky gig, but I think the melodic side of John, which we had more so probably in the John Wetton band – and the UK end of it as well, which I really enjoyed – I think the melody and John’s voice just were synonymous with each other. There was a beauty in the way the man sang. Not too many people have that. So yeah, it was great to hear him sing these tunes and things like going back in time to Crime of Passion and stuff like that, which we did together.
Speaking of vocals, I’ve really been enjoying the backing vocals from Lynsey Ward on this album, too.
Phenomenal, aren’t they? Yeah, absolutely.
Do you write the backing vocal sections, or does she come up with that? How does that work?
Gotta be honest, apart from a few minor things, Lynsey’s come up with 99% of it. What I felt was, if we needed somebody to do backing vocals, aside from myself and Jon and Dave, then it would be good to get somebody in who was creative. When I work for other people, if I put keyboards solos on, they pull you in for your creativity on their tunes. And that’s kind of what we did with Lynsey. And I also felt that she’s a star waiting to be born, basically. So to give her this opportunity. It’s really interesting because her dad’s become like a major fan and he’s a lovely, lovely man, and he’s now a big Lifesigns fan. But yeah, it was duck to water, she absolutely just lapped it up. She would send through files and they would always be beautifully made and with great ingenuity. It’s very easy in this day and age, especially after so much music, to copy somebody. But to be unique is always very difficult. And Lynsey has that.
Do you know when you write a section, like the latter section of “Fortitude”, do you have a sense of, Oh yeah, this is just going to go down so well with the audience. Do you have that sense right in the moment of writing it? Or does that come out more as Steve is producing the sonic quality of it?
Yeah, probably a bit of both, really. When I first latched on to the end section of “Fortitude“, I thought, Well, this is a bit different! It just felt like it just kicked in and it was…huge. But it wasn’t until Steve got hold of it that you really felt the whole of it…I mean, it was just beautiful. And I remember sitting in the studio, and again, Jon does most of the bass parts for the album…again, it’s mostly down to Jon. But on this particular one, I pointed out how I thought it should go. And we just needed something that sat for those few minutes at the end. I remember the first time that we’d kind of finished it and we went through and got through to the end of it and Steve and I just looked at each other and grinning at the end of it. And I thought, Yeah, this is special. This is very special. And judging by the reaction we’re starting to get, it is.
So along with Jon’s bass, are there bass pedals on that, or is that a synth as well?
Yeah, Steve uses a thing called, I think it’s called a Baby Taurus or something, which is like Taurus pedals that you just run off a keyboard. So whenever we need to do that, we just fly that in. And I think it’s used in “Ivory Tower“, It’s used in a couple of places on the album and “The Last One Home“. I mean, in the old days we used to all sit around the studio and go, Yeah, that one works, that doesn’t, put that on, do this…and of course this was all done remotely. So, that makes a whole different game.
So after that huge epic finale of “Last One Home”, you know, that could have very easily sealed the album. So what inspired you to instead close the album with brief “Altitude reprise” at the end, and with a little more electronic vibe to it?
Well, it’s a funny one. We try out a lot of the music between ourselves. And so there’s a little bunch of us, obviously the band, Julie who does merch, Brett who does the artwork, everything bounces out to everybody, a couple of close friends. And I had just been playing around with this electronic thing. And then all of a sudden I realized that the chorus of “Altitude” fits perfectly over it. I thought, Oh, that’s really lovely. And I thought, Well, if that actually just came at the end, then people would want to go back to the beginning and start again. So there was method in my madness. But then Brett said to me, Well, I could do with a 20 minute version of the electronic one! [laughs]So I think we were all in agreement. I mean, a lot of people probably thought it would just end with “Last One Home” but it kind of brings you back wanting more, I think. Well, I hope so!
I must say I agree with the call for a 20 minute version. For me, I was thinking, Oh, I really can’t wait to see where this develops. And I hadn’t looked at how long the song ran for, and so I was like, Oh, what a pity it’s fading out now.
I do actually have about an 18 minute version of it or something. So I’ll have to dig that out at some point.
Like Riverside on their bonus discs. they put their more ambient spacious stuff. So it would be great to have something like that.
The other cool trick I wanted to mention that is really nice is during “Fortitude” when you sing, “Why…” you’ve got that reverse delay that introduces the word “Why”. Was that one of Steve’s tricks that he introduced or how did that come about?
Yeah. Steve and I have worked together for years and years and years. So he knows me backwards, he knows what I’ll like, he knows what will fit and as a team, although we do tend to tear into each other when we’re not happy with something, we’re just very strong, you know? So I remember I just came into the studio and that bit came on and I had not heard it, you know, and I just lit up and went, Very cool. [laughs]He just has a little grin on his face and that’s it.
So up until COVID brought an end to live shows, your main gig outside of Lifesigns has been heading up the Bonnie Tyler’s band, is that right?
That’s right. Yeah, she was just on the phone yesterday, actually. It’s one of those things. I think for a lot of people my age who were in music, we ended up working for a lot of different people over the years. I was very fortunate in that respect with the amount of different types of music and different types of bands I worked with. But Bonnie, I think it was 1993 that I got the call to go down for the auditions. So it just became sort of family, really. I’ve been lucky with a few bands like that. Yeah, so we’ve traveled all over the world. She’s massive in places you’ve never heard of, so that kind of thing. And it’s been great, I’ve really enjoy it. But the thing is with all of us is that we all have other bands that we do stuff for. I mean, I was playing keyboards with The Strawbs and then Dave joined The Strawbs. We all sort of bounce from one thing to another. Steve works with Yes. It’s part of his job. So, Lifesigns has always been in our spare time, but we’ve always made time for it, if that makes sense. So, I’m hoping that will change. I’m hoping that it might become more important. We shall see. [laughs]But with your help, Scott, with your help!
Well, it’s just incredible to have a twenty-five year run with one artist.
Well, Nick Beggs and I talk about it a lot. It’s about juggling, you know. I write for television. I’ve done a lot of music that’s mostly news channels and stuff like that. I did the music for the war in Iraq on CNN. Never got paid a penny for that one, unfortunately, but we live in hope! (He said not bitterly). But stuff like that sort of keeps you going. And then while I was doing Bonnie, I was also doing Fish, I was also doing The Scorpions and Greenslade and Strawbs. So it’s a bit like, um, Nick was very busy with Steve Hackett and Steve Wilson at the same time. And so you just fit in what you can. And occasionally you have to turn down jobs you’d really like to do. But I think those days have changed now because obviously there’s less music around now than there was back in those days. And so you tend to find – whereas we all jumped ship from one thing to another back in the day – now people keep hold of their gigs. Ha! It’s changed, definitely.
One thing you were involved with that somehow I missed at the time, was a brief collaboration with Paul Rogers and Kenney Jones in a band called The Law. You have any good stories about that experience?
Oh yeah, a few. Some I can talk about, some I can’t! Yeah, I really enjoyed it. Paul and I got on very well. I was quite surprised, actually, because for me The Law was just something that happened and then there was a gig and it was in front of, I don’t know, 75,000 people and it was great. And I remember standing there on stage playing cowbell in “All Right Now” and I’m just thinking, Well, it doesn’t get much better than this. You know, and there’s Paul giving it what. And he was brilliant, absolutely brilliant. And then for some reason, which I still don’t know the full story to, it didn’t happen. We were all set to do a European tour. Big things were being said, the gig had gone really well. I do know that that gig, I think, was where Paul and Brian May met each other. What did happen after that was that I ended up for the next probably 12 to 18 months working with Paul at his studio on his own compositions. And that was great fun. And I always remember about two o’clock one morning having a cup of tea with Paul and he just turns to me. He said, Why isn’t anybody buying my songs [meaning, other artists buying his songs to cover]? And I said to him, You’ve got to stop singing the demos. Because he just sang them better than anybody else could sing them! And the thing was, I said, They just sound brilliant! He’s the only guy I know, and I’m completely heterosexual, but he’s the only guy I know that can walk up to you and go, Oh, baby. And you just go, Wow! That’s, that’s amazing. [laughs]So, just what a gift, what a gift. Amazing singer. Absolutely amazing.
Did that time that you were spending songwriting with him, did your playing wind up on any recordings from that?
You know, I don’t know. I mean, I’m not sure if he ever did anything with those songs, to be honest. We kept in touch for a few years, but not recently. So, I couldn’t say.
I’m curious about your background with aviation and how that’s played into your life and writing.[laughs]It’s no major thing. But it is also part of my income stream because I do buy and sell aviation memorabilia. I always had a love of aviation. I would love to have been a pilot. I just wasn’t clever enough, basically. I applied to air traffic control, got accepted. But it wasn’t what I wanted to do in the end. My father put me in a bank when I left school and then I started working as a dock foreman. And then I thought, well, I can jump from this into aviation, with shipping and handling and cargo and all that kind of stuff. Which is what I did. And I worked for a couple of companies in the UK, and then eventually I worked for the American company Airborne Freight Corporation in their London office. I was 23 years old and it was just like European sales manager of a big American company. And stupidly, I decided to do music! And most people thought I was mental because obviously I’d done all the hard work to get where I needed to go. And I have this massive love of like fifties and sixties civil aviation and Imperial Airways and all that kind of thing. I just think it must have been an incredible time to have traveled the world. I mean, we get to do it as musicians and we’re very lucky. I’m very lucky from that point of view. But I always remember there was a photo album I got through a very rich family from the thirties traveling around the world on Imperial Airways. And these things were held together by string. They were incredible planes. And there’s a picture of the pilot with this massive wheel in front of him, flying across the equator. And he’s a young lad and he’s laughing, he’s wearing his shorts and everything else, and he’s just laughing. And I thought, that’s the only aircraft in the sky over Africa when that picture was taken. How was that? How did that feel? It must’ve been incredible. So again, the time that you can only look at from a distance and think about. But again, great inspiration from the point of view of writing and that kind of stuff. So, I’m a bit of a romantic in those areas, I guess.
So are we seeing enough light at the end of the tunnel that you might be able to plan for some future Lifesigns shows either end of this year, beginning of next year?
Hmm. I don’t know on that one, Scott. I mean, we’re down to do these shows with Big Big Train in the UK. And I suppose both of us, both bands and the people who manage the venue who I know really well, we’re probably all looking at it and going, Will it, Won’t it? We just don’t know. It’s a bit like the Cruise next year, nobody knows whether everything will be fine for then again. I do think the steps forward with the vaccine, although I’ve not had one yet, seem very positive and very strong. Part of the problem, cause we discussed this amongst the bands that I’m with, is it’s not just about, I don’t really want to tour and get on planes unless I’ve had both jabs [of a vaccine]. I think most of the guys that I work with feel the same. But then again, most people aren’t going to want to be in an audience if they haven’t had them, either. So you’ve got to look at the whole perspective that different countries are working at different rates…I think we have to play the careful part with it, really. I’m quite happy to wait until the time is right so that we can all have a really good time and feel safe. I think that’s the important part. And that’s for everybody: band, crew, venues, audience, you know, everyone.
I’m a little out of the loop, obviously being over here in Colorado, but I’ve heard that the impact of Brexit is going to make it even more expensive and challenging to tour Europe. Is that what you’re looking at, too?
I would agree, Scott, entirely. Firstly, the thing that really annoys me for our kind of music is that we can’t get to your country. Visas are now something like $3,000 each and that’s before you’ve played a note or hit a chord. And then you have to hire equipment, hire hotels, tour buses, whatever. For a band at our level, it’s almost impossible unless we can find some way to crowdfund. Canada is free. You know, you can just go to Canada and play a gig. And I wish the U.S. would take the same deal. Sadly now with Brexit, they’re talking about visas and everything else to get across to Europe. And I don’t think anyone’s going to be terribly inclined to do that at our level. It’s okay if you’re Paul McCartney or if you’re U2 or those kinds of things, someone will do it for you and the cost will come out of something. But I think for those bands that need to be heard, then it’s really difficult. Don’t get me wrong, I am the eternal optimist. You’d have to be to do this. You know? So I am always looking to positivity and brightness and there’s definitely a certain amount of that in the music that we make. But I’ve met quite a number of people from the US who haven’t gone on the music cruises and they haven’t had any access to the current new bands. There’s so many great bands around now. So many really great bands. And they don’t know any of them you know, and they think old people stopped songwriting in about 1995. No! This is not what happened! So we need to find ways, there needs to be a kind of global change, for people to discover this. This is a very long conversation, probably better in a pub one evening or whatever, but you know the search for the lowest common denominator in current television and radio and everything else kind of precludes any artistry. I’m not saying there aren’t good records around, I’ve got to be politically correct. Yes, people still make good music. But the thing is that there’s so much that isn’t heard and that has to change, that has to change.
Oh, I know. In 2019, I said, Boy, I think this year for progressive rock rivals the early seventies in terms of quality and quantity output. And then 2020 proved that true again. And already 2021 is proving to be the same.
It’s crazy. We picked the wrong year to bring the record out because there’s so, so much good stuff coming out. It’s really, really good.
Well, the new album’s getting a great response from the fans thus far, so we’re really wishing you the best on where it’s going to take you in the next year or two.
Yeah. It’s an interesting ride, Scott. I’ll be honest, the boys have done us proud on this one and judging from the reviews that we’ve seen so far, we’re just lost for words, really. It’s everything we’d hoped for. I hope with that, we can find new friends around the world who enjoy what we do.
Given that kind of response, is your general mindset that every two to three years is the time for a new Lifesigns album. Do you think you’ll continue with that kind of pace from here on out?
I’m not sure actually. We’ll have to see. We don’t actually work to a schedule. It’s kind of like when it’s ready, it’s ready. Which is why when people say, When is the release date, we’re terribly vague on those kinds of things, because we don’t want to push something. We want to do it in its own time. You know, so when it’s ready, it’s ready. And now it is. And I have to say a huge thank you to everybody who helped to crowdfund what we did. Above and beyond the call of duty. So many people who’ve become such good friends, which has been the nice thing. One of the joys of Lifesigns for me personally is when we go and do a gig, it’s like a party. Because people know all the words, they’re friends with all the band, everybody just gets together and has great fun. And it never used to be like that years ago. You know, I can remember with Asia, we used to come off stage, run for the tour bus and try and avoid meeting the people. And I remember saying one night when I got back to the hotel – and you’re just sitting in your hotel room after a gig – I said to Carl, I’m sorry, I’m not going to do this anymore. I said, I’m going to hang around the gig when we finish. And of course the one thing they wanted to see was Carl and John, you know, but that wasn’t the mindset of people from that time. And this has changed now. And it’s changed with people who are still around doing it. Carl‘s very different these days in the way that he approaches things. He’s very hands-on. So I do love that change. I think it’s a really a positive change that you could spend time with your friends and fans and become a good chums. It’s very nice.